The threat of A.I. to the human existence.

Tuesday, December 12th


Jason Hawes & JV Johnson talk with author James Barrett about the threat that recent advances in artificial intelligence poses to human dominance of Earth. Will the masters eventually become the slaves? 12/8/2017 - Beyond Reality Radio with Jason Hawes & JV Johnson

Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

I cannot be owned by scientific method. You're six. Send him tall and. Creature that's been seen my many little life you know. And say there have good morning mining boom Herron online inning and news features and yeah me. Yeah lying there and mil hanging a land line game. And I zone Shane sham and you mentioned you. My experience it's an experience. And I. Oh everybody it's Thursday on the West Coast Friday on the East Coast and many were stuck in between welcome to be on really reveal myself and Jason clause in the always awesome. Jamey Johnson we've got a great show lined up tonight and we rep she's actually don't have much time here Serena and go right to break and we're gonna bring our guest and we're going to be talking with team spirit we talked about artificial intelligence and how it poses a threat. Mankind that's coming up speed on reality radio T. They beyond reality radio. 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Read a lot of news stories talked a lot about this next topic and that the concept of machines taking over our lives our planet. The experience I'm in it's something that we've we've talked about a lot and it seems as though every day we're getting more and more information that indicates this is a possibility. Well a lot of the top scientists don't Aaron terrorist him and talk about how did this is going to become a problem this is there needs to be some safeguard. And that's why the subject is always interest interest at me so much. Yet and our guest tonight is James Barrett he's an author and filmmaker his book is called our final invention artificial intelligence and the end of the human Erin James. Welcome to beyond reality radio it's great to have you on again. It's great to be here again I regretted it. So we have to start kind of from the beginning here because it's been awhile since you've been on the programs and give us a little bit your background tell us we are. OJ I'm pretty documentary filmmaker first and then any an altar idea. Peninsula she is working for National Geographic and puede yes and discovery. And I got into our national intelligence but make your own words back around 2000. And that the subject assembly. Artificial intelligence let's really that the downside of AI. This subject is so big I decided I would usually in big political. You know most documentary film you see how long they have about 5000 words. A book and have 80000 works so. But what this does slip something important but it will devote a lot of several years through and then come up with a book. All that and there's such a wide range of issues that this this whole AI I think brings up an end. Of course is a positive aspect to a there's terrifying. Sites to it as well a lot of people don't think. Well yeah that you know right and despite the title of my book or violent and actually China aren't acting ai is not. Up fabulous set of technologies you know it's not one thing there are many good odds are cults. And different techniques. There's these. The digital assistant to talk to when you took issue anymore courts are. Good news object recognition and translation. There is all the engine you can Smartphone navigation. So it ended it there are many benefits right now forcing some medical conference with but is even talking. In the short term we have to worry about who controls the AI. And then the long term we have and worry about whether or not you know I can be controlled at all. A great for example there are people that try and develop. Autonomous battlefield robot and drones and these are machines that kill people without a human in the loop not written the decision. And he certainly there are these are theoretical laser printer in the lab engine they'll be. So. We're rip you brought who's controlling the airline and and then the longer term you know we've never show the planet or something Smart enough. But it science fiction legend Archie Clark well I interviewed him corner between. We humans here the future not because without his creatures with a stronger as well because with the most intelligent. And we should look I was summoned smarter than us they will in the future. Unfortunately that that reality is coming up pretty fast. James if you if this attract your attention her hair around the year 2000 during the documentary project. And now we're in 2017. We obviously have seen. Tremendous. Leaps forward in this particular discipline around I mean what was it looking like in 2000 immediate meted alarming tee then. We you know it could strap alarming reality I would envoy. Everything that was happening especially here Rick Hirsch well. Is now one of the chief engineers and Google recruit low on the Thomas Edison is a great America and you know working for Google out and they basically it really is really really super intelligent green. And I was completely. On the side of people who were thinking that well we can we can be more mortality we can. Court our brains into a more durable frustrate in this in this spaghetti machine we've got our heads. We could critic brokerage sort of weed and the reverend but Tucker's book the agents spiritual machines and I was also a big fan of Rodney Brooks are also interviewed he created iRobot let me go rumba. He started with another company called. Recent robotics and they're making milk factory robots you've got to replace people. And he was also. Very very optimistic and also just accuses Iran or infringing its industrial. So I was on their side and then it was until it or this or that I'd cut this seed of doubt planted in my mind. And then that brought it faster. And there's nothing going on it was really very scared. But all these things are programs of I certainly about these things around 2000 certain write the book run 2010. And veterans everywhere is. Look trying to pick our corporate very people we're we're very worried. Nick bought some political culture intelligence. Into the country communities into our review was worried is the worker who wouldn't want to. Now in now are Stephen Hawking an eagle on mosque and Bill Gates. All sing. You know we weren't sure the short term benefits of Leon who want to local. It's interesting that in the timing of all that especially given that Tim I think one of the most step prophetic. Pop culture. Displays of a guy being a problem was the 2001 a space Odyssey film by a Stanley Kubrick which I think was under was at a late sixties released. Yeah area and that was that was been well received court. Yeah and that story with the obvious in the Hal computer which which ended up controlling the spaceship. And and basically took over. Commitment and dominated the humans on that particular craft. On that is really what work were talking about here and that I mean talk about being prophetic. Yeah well that's kind of a market kind of an allegory perspiration or as much. And you know what is it the immortal words words are. I'm afraid I can't do that there are. These to revive the real electric rhythm spaceship ultimately the overcome them. Overcome to a bark bark. You know that. 011 of the many visionary thing was included. Good editing the part that only and build an intelligence literally around yet our our galaxy. And who preceded by by by the secret intelligence. And a little more subtle thing in their group of experiment Lance among the apes. That they're not but I obelisk that long stated that some sort of intelligent entity. That bingo drum trading opens. And that's so what kind of a vision of what will happen if we ultimately. Lose the planet. And sort of inhuman machines don't need resources they'll sort of slow in the dark. Well and expect seeing them most of them don't really have a game. Limit in the amount of time that they can be around and we also need to worry about different things I know Georgia Institute of Technology. Not too long ago I actually had built and ai system that allowed to allowed to use the AI to deceive humans are not to see humans. And it chose to deceive humans. On on its own path protecting different things and that's what's scary because eventually he sings are going to know that we are there. The were the biggest competition were the only thing that can power them down and that becomes terrifying situation when their learning themselves. That's absolutely right you know put your finger on it and in my book are Portland bench and we talk about basic life since super intelligence. We had this feeling of what computers and they'll always be chemically inert passive and waiting for input from us little and it. But when we create machines that are Smart as us and Smart and touched. Smarter people than me who were they I makers. Our our hypothesize in the Kokomo basic tour lives. It. What tribes like so protection. Like resource supposition. Like efficiency and creativity. There will be peak for the very reason you named bill I don't know that I mean they're all know. In pursuit of their goals what their goals are mining asteroids or even just playing really good game chat. They'll know that their goal with better suited. And the be better able to go to obtainable if they have more resources. And be let it enable you to reach their goals and some of them are a so hopeful though they'll get resources are not stop Google from important. He built up already these technologies decentralized another one ports these these cognitive architectures aren't a club. So be it good idea. I never was really funny because how dumb do they think we are Google amounts. We've made a big red button. And so we're gonna push it there in our guitar control your river. Well let me and I do remember that Google will also have a situation not too long ago where there ai systems actually created languages to communicate with themselves instead and once they're I didn't understand. And that goes to show our system that's us as human beings. We've created weapons to protect ourselves from things that could could kill us take her life shut us down however you want to refer to it so where Windiz AI sits there and say what we need to either create these things to keep them from shutting us down them from hurting us. Or when do we just annihilate the malls we never have to worry about it again. Yes and especially you know there's there's only a couple of Beers and this whole conversation. All these ideas are very plausible there's one school that science fiction that are like the listeners jet and rest and you know we are the smartest thing possible. It's possible to create something was put on the existence of thousands or millions of millions of tons more intelligently. So we create machines that are that are improving their own chocolate program which is something else just about. Computers ago. So whether the Rexall put the burden on the soccer we've we've. When we were when we saw we're creating anti. Anxiety research and development when it during the research and development interpret it. It that are. The rate of increase of intelligence will be here financial and it will quickly soar past march. So we better we can't just think about what what you know like drama doubt in my are on that there are gonna hurt me. Records you know maybe you know these are on the outlook about drugs currently. Who ripped a look a little bit on the road or machines that are thousand hormones and underwent so we are. And ask ourselves how we treat things where you know our retreat the next animal. Evolutionary scale from us well. Into the great apes and call in danger to their engines were there you. So. You know intelligence is not an. What winning is not ours alone or it could. The beavers. You mentioned some names. You mentioned the mosque gates' talk in. The air these are people that are that are sounding warning bells but they're also people that are probably more responsible than many for bringing us to the point rat. It's kind of a kind of a an ironic. It is. But it you know that you're actually right Bill Gates is really created the beat. Information technology landscape will even though Steve Wozniak co creator of but couple. Came on and on with these guys I'm I'm I'm really worried about play. And these are all second technologically very astute people and they're in now are also some some world class programs. There's. Stewart Russell. Who's a co author of being sex BR. Standard six Korea Atwater approach he co worker with Peter nordic. A Google. And he's he's now one big proponents of safety supervision and transparency. In the development they are because even a look forward to that book. He writes the good our social intelligence well some good use terms of the dangers as nuclear vision. And got a great Carlin grew provision that you know power's nuclear power plants and and and nuclear bombs. Syria that there's there's a lot of love really thought it would astute people were saying that this is something we Suharto well. Well I think also we need to remember the fact that we write apps for a phones or computers for ipads and whenever notes. All that all those things are weak and interact with a differently. And it's not far out there on I was talking to a computer program which to couple years back. When he was talking about AI and he was saying the fact is that these programs are starting to right themselves and they're going to star rating program so they can interact with other devices whether it's any ice system or to programmer now can attract to your iPhone. Your android phone any of these sings it became king communicate back and forth which a lot of them already do. But also we can share personal data. We DC guys and Estes goes on and on. Well that's what I find very alarming about them having little Emma Willard. We know that there will pay we know there all data is being sucked up as it is it took five billion dollar you're industry's selling personal data. You know when you buy something on the Internet. You order something. We search for something at some consumable good. It all you round on the Internet aren't used in the last. Groups and you'll agree the route to put connecting turning out. Well imagine that times ten because you have these devices that are on in your house we are speaking on guardedly with your there's there's thousand security. And today it outside if you talk about your health problems you might find the true darker church later. If you thought about your financial situation much fun though your trend of Quebec well. All this data is going in and giant got a profile of future looks. And it didn't interest was still in it to their heart and water. So be very careful about you know there's an ability. Or current task is YouTube debate where did you ask your trial questions. And it said that that affect veco. It was who was on the it was on the war is the most part of the armed and you need it can be upgraded and a and get more interactive with your chair at the same time it was due to increasing your children born in you know your bar and so you know we've got to really keep on. On on what you should Clinton's open all Corsica complex. Willing javy and I've spoken about this in the past because last year my wife got me the Alexa system and angry wonderful but the thing is that it does listen to you all the time and you can go long and you know delete the recordings that that doesn't matter because it's already it's in their system. But the fact of the matter is there was just a situation a few months back where the police were requesting. Amazon to turn over in Iran recordings that an election made at a house and yes it was it was over murder case but the fact of the matter is just to know the I mean the fact of you talking about a financial issue and now. All the sudden you're being rejected for loans are you talking about a medical issue and all the sudden you can't kid and you can't it life insurance little medical insurance. Those are terrifying situations and just becomes also such an invasion of privacy an invasion of your private details. OK we get a jump to break here we've got a lot more to talk about James Barrett it's beyond reality presentation. It's. Not talking her chain's parent about his book in how he outlines in details and fears. Actually the future of artificial intelligence and how. It may some day. Be an invention of mankind that turns around and becomes the master of mankind it's a pretty scary scenarios we continue to talk about it James. Before winter break Jason was talking about privacy and privacy issues as it relates to some of the stuff. And yes absolutely and you know biases. Come Democrat from these data collectors as well from the people their program. Gender bias is come on you if you do a simple cut congruent and what doctor and then look up images are darker picture we're going to be wiped allies. There's there are particularly black people. Racial and gender biases are are are included in these systems. Racial and gender bias you're going into the automatic mortgage calculators or the sudden get a longer. So you know. That is that it is important it should be kept private and it is a very sensitive spray ocean just beat allowed you know. Google usually you're Smart you're that you're camera. Years ago. That street view camera wasn't just taking pictures who sucking up local. Local. Out of from Europe. You're wireless system. You were outscored your actual. And and the government called us up several times and finally their pursuit of its arms in Europe. And I'm pretty big presumably soccer in America but the whole you know the whole thing is that a that is how we train. You know you know you are going to occur rooted hatred and should go out and we'll let you know amateur cool secret that a player or. But they're using it for advertising their used to mark the you're using it as another. Another eloquently your data crude oil trades. So you know I'm just put in that in that consumer interest movie where where as we're following Tom Cruise in the ball. And they were crystallized. That's coming up because you're faced with a recognizable in there. Honestly James I think you book should probably be under horror if you think. Because of the things that are there things that a lot of people don't realize and it's it's terrifying how easy it is for your information get out there. And how he sings take it and manipulated and and just where we're going to go from there I mean we've got cars that are now trying to make decisions on. If it should if it should hit somebody and said do and doing something else it. What to what's the equation on that you've gotten where you were saying you've got robots that are now being tested in in the military to be altar and make decisions. On if if that should cute it's going to kill dispersant and and has no human connection anymore. It's just x.s and those in ones and twos that are going through that arm are allowing missing two and to decide was going. If you put your triggering you know and what is what's called war on some somewhere you know programming epics in the news sheets. And making a moral moral machines you know Mercedes-Benz in designing mirror so loving car. Has decided that the passengers more important than how are pedestrians which is something that everybody repeat artwork but an interesting decision. So and an accident case something happened very quickly that the machine can respond quicker than human. Sitting in the driver's seat and probably won't move your reading a book or are. They machines make the decision to. Preserve a lot of people in the car and and track record a lot of people are. And that's that's. That may be that the right decision that is not much that you would have to start talking about it. And I never agree there. It's. No I mean there there there's a there's a moral our equipment and the moral of component. To all the technology. Attribute to these politicians are just sort of. Well end up another thing that comes up though another thing that comes up though is the possibility of these things being being hacked all computers can be hacked I drive a Dodge Ram pick our. And in my mind actually you connect system we just had to do this huge opted in because. It was hackable people were able to hack their vehicles and literally take control of the the throttle to break the steering wheel and all these good. And a week we had this update system that we had to put intent to take that away and you see the videos online people taking control these vehicles do you connect system. And that's what's terrifying I mean if somebody able to hack the vehicle I'm in just in the mighty mighty system that's in there that's controlling everything. How far it's not a far leap to think that somebody's gonna be able hacks and these these killer robots are these. These AI medical system error or any of that stuff. Sure and you know I don't know I don't know it certainly want you know there's there's been met. System in your account saying the temperature to learn injure your patterns and then. You know you're going on vacation you tell us. We're doing everything he could keep it cool well I don't I'm a couple sharing them commercially bird in my brother just under the district you're my old fashioned column. Change the temperature or put on a little bit nation's southern Lebanon so world. You know how to get caught cooler now because I'm not there. And the fact ability you know I have wrote in the book about. We're we're nearing the place where ai and malware and malware just that saw where we're software that their packs in the truck is still open. Were nearing a virtual Vegas together where. The beat the entry level intelligence can get intrigued writing a is getting lower. And and Andy acting schools are all over the web in my book I looked up via a botnet. And whose record on you to government critic it is 200 dollars and you can have your own botnet which would which could. Issued denial that should have attacked 2000 people. So Schumer and you know you get completely idiotic in as he met. Malware and in fact some of them that happened in the last election. You know some of that some of that so that when it happened in the last election right now. I know for a fact that our our most consistent controller to controller energy Rick. Are not under tractors there there's there's there are tax plan. It is at all political goddesses and they're made by Siemens. Are all over the country and they're easy easy yeah. We. If you're right I am a cut up my book is in the nonfiction east. Category leadership in our. Her exact area tell it let's let's stick I mean you've done a pretty good job of a laying out the landscape that were currently in my my question was going to be are we do we have threats currently and I think the threats that you saw these described at this point or more. Personal invasion and it indeed and privacy issues but. At what point do we cross a line where. We have. Devices. Robotic in artificial intelligence driven devices that actually could threaten our lives. Well. When you talk about beyond talking about autonomous robots and pitcher grew much out there in the downside of any. Big integration in battle through technology is that comes every. Every county sheriff's department hasn't talking now they have their own and equipment and other machine guns. And you will see. Robo cup on the street if we if we allow almost out of the look of the creator. You've seen so that's something are unimportant but you have I see that happening. In the you know let the Decker. We'll Dubai are and give priorities using some of those units and not I'm not what's actually carry weapons but. Ones that are out there that Ken Cole Cole for assistance call other officers and and also people walk up to report crimes going. And yet so in those things are ultimate peace and that they're not given weapons at this point yet they're not allowed to make that choice which it probably is very Smart of them. By yeah so it's a RO. You're very irrigate this is and then what happens incremental you know. These these other systems or are hoping Costa then there are. You know if we learn about technology years after has gone to court. The military gets you know the NSA equity fifty billion dollar blockbuster. Other means unsupervised collectors should about what congress the congress is not a thought leaders to. You know that he had the good their drones so they're doing things we don't really know them knowledge of and that happened here before. The rebels were that the public the public. I saw. So. But in terms of intelligence and slow or a carpet architecture that is so powerful it really threatens was still quite a Google which we're still. I would say at least point 152029. Necessity that is I did a poll among. A guy makers who are trying to create human level intelligence and she'd be good habit to comport. Because when you create a human level intelligence and change shortly after that. You you create there's the machines will be able. You've got some so what we can and would faster better and they'll trickle through there. And you know higher research and development. So that's very important date went that arc and the meeting date I'd putt from Poland Google's when he quoted. And win a machine law the general intelligence argument. And that's intelligence and caller or capacities. You know and right now we have ginger really did it go or really good navigation or Madrid that it. At that. At translating but we don't have any to bring it all together into a general intelligence what. Recruit well says that it is 20/20 nine. And it's been Berlin but most people think he's been really accurate vote. Anticipating technological advances. Okay here some people say it should be going inside the eight coaches what between now and we're going to prod clinical. You know but it is only 45. In my polling nobody was around 2100. But I don't I don't really pursued the commander in a couple of developing pitching mini. And gun makers should go to Atlantic could go on record as far. So that that look that's not a good court. Yet there's a lot of ways obviously in the the most frightening scenario is that these devices become. Self aware self replicating itself maintain her own and and and view us as a threat in some fashion and actually. Causes physical harm but there's a whole another angle to this and we've we've seen reports recently that. Robotic devices will come in and replace the jobs of seventy million Americans within the next however many years and a short the figure was. On you know there are where this whole scenario plays out where it just ends up in absolute economic chaos. And that is a whole different kind of problem. We're we're there we're going to be keeping people can kind of sort. They're excited just came up from big big consultant. Movement can present 700 million people will be displaced from their jobs but we're about a twenty purity. That's pretty alarming but more adult. Record that that most alarming for the record. By another. Consulting. Gartner. Said that at one point 513 of all will be placed automation or era. It is you know. On the on the one hand we don't know what unskilled labor contribute trained to do for apple. There are several million Carter commercial drivers. In the united spirit truck drivers 200 people active drivers. It's not clear that in our building when when their job particular way what would be could be trained to do. There are five million about corporate accountant struggled and got her for years. In danger that their ability of AI and automation and giving way to the middle class so that. You know legal research legal Nicole legal discovery which is what are your law institute let me go much faster by IBM's want to right now. What can and getting into in the matters that are at stake in the federal medical Latin America. It is circuit be it doesn't look at a certain that it can detect a cancer. Is such as cancer sheeting in. And in the lungs actually is better than humans so. You know although the down side. A lot of job displacement a lot of truck and the other side is often in the past. Technology could get new jobs. That we can't really should compare. But you know if you you gotta park your place or you get old. Years huge number of support industries. And a lot of people. Well that fire cart that is true but also we we come to a and aspect where. If these things are these. Robots a guy takes these jobs. You've also you've got robots talent in that are making us. Are there other robots are so you you don't even have the manufacturing jobs that's gone. As you said truck driving I know I know a mosque and others have been working on self driving trucks that NO two and a record fourth in the country let alone electric ones. On and then there that you know that the next step is going to be. Using these these robotics or whatever to unload these trucks because you don't because it cuts down on the of the chance somebody can get her back injury or anything else now you've got robots doing it. And so it just this is gonna are a lot of control and it might open the door for if if economics and and finances aren't huge issue for people to export your league to do other things but. Where where does that come into play I mean when we take away all the jobs because robotics and ai has had taken over. What do people have except to try to expand our our world and start looking for new places and and is just terrified. Well. Foxconn the largest contract manufacturer in the world to make iphones don't. They just bought our 30000 robots replace dirty dozen workers and the like this year. What to all the people do. What are going to be next are you what's gonna happen is. This is the robot revolution is gonna hit the Google country's first group that's where we've been getting cheap labor and well. It triggered a developing countries and those guys are ready jobs in the car or cup here shall. Immigration problems like we have not had a we're issues resolved. I you know I I don't I don't know workers. Some people are proposing guaranteed minimum income. But if you like me and like you're virtually everybody I know you like to work. And you reluctant. And the idea of getting into the nothing. Well and in some respects it sound great and also on at all. Yet and purity and we are literally yeah well where do you go from any and and I think that's where. And saying of course when you look at things like that in a Star Trek and all these all these shows. It's it's not in that money's got to sing anymore today they've moved on from that now it's it's the exploration in the finding new areas. And on and honestly I think there are. Perception of where the future is going to be. Seems dead on because it comes to a point where if machines are making everything what's who what do you humans do to excel would do what they do to. Better themselves and I think the only saying the only option from there is to start looking at. In a different places and different with different worlds and because we've we're going to lose control or the ability to excel. On on the planet that weren't. Would invent a competitor really interest in India wouldn't that Europe. And I missed some of the subscription series up there but wasn't there was a circle like about the conflict. I think Battlestar Galactica work. They escaped from a liar. Or the other but I zions or whatever they were. But yeah I and I think they were just takes keeping but. I know some of the shows out there whether it be. You know I'll be or of the oldest in this new comedy show by Seth Seth MacFarlane or whether it be some Star Trek. Nobody's ever really it's not about financial gain anymore it's not about bettering yourself trying to make more than than the next person. Tune to put yourself from the immigrant and a better spot financially it's it's more just about. They've they've surpassed the whole idea of of finances and money and and so forth analysis all in trying to trying to locate different worlds different species and expand that way. But it's just is there comes a point where if he you don't you don't have to do you're doing because. It because it's not gonna make a difference what you are making money or not. I mean who who wears the draw if where's the the place well we're does ambition come from at that point. We're talking with James Barrett he's a filmmaker and an author his book is called our final invention artificial intelligence in the end of the human error the website is James Barrett that's BA RR AT dot com. We're gonna take a break when we come back we're gonna continue this fascination fascinating discussion. On reality radio was Jason's teeth. Last segment you yeah. Want to talk about change spirit don't always feel real good Jason you. Hello everybody it's Thursday on the West Coast Friday on the East Coast and many were stuck in between welcome to beyond really radio myself Jason Hawes and the always awesome Jamey Johnson don't forget to stop by our web site beyond reality radio dot com also the FaceBook page on beyond reality radio on and on FaceBook would love to have you stop by and like it and joined. Our conversation in the chat room if he can which you can also find on the web site. Yet just click the listen live on the honor LE radio dot com that connected to an online chat endlessly on the shelf there but also on the website you can tell the free iPhone and android app. Let's listen live show's cast. Touchpad shows join me online chat he do download the show which we know as being downloaded by tens of thousands of people a day we greatly appreciate it just do us a favor and I'd just. Just rate it helps cushion Ford makes it easier for people find. And that's what it's all about we've been talking. With James Barrett he's an author and a filmmaker his website is team spirit dot com in the book we're talking about is our final invention artificial intelligence in the end of the human error we've heard warning bells being sounded around the globe by many of our industrial and technological leaders people leading companies like Microsoft and and dead skies snow I was so anecdotally tell us something different but people are talking about this and there's a real reason to be concerned in. I James I want to bring you back to something that we started to at the beginning of the discussion when we talked about science fiction writers and visionaries. Kind of predicting or forecasting or profit sizing this on as a as an eventual reality. Do those same writers that same genre the science fiction genre seems to be sold Tom able to at least come up with some. Outline of what our future may look like they see any any. Peaceful or positive resolution if we continue in the on the path that we are headed with this artificial intelligence issue. You know I'm I'm I'm not a giant are partial so what about Europe so one guy ordering. He did so this does not mean this is not a happy featured group per and he. Was the first person came up with a terms singularity to describe the point at which we sure quite what machines that are Smart as we are. He says science fiction writer he took it back in the nineties sucked insurers. Records because they can't seat. What the world welcome world world's would look. Like beyond the what will the notion that plateau slowed in machines because you have to be Smart and human to understand what's. So called the singularity. Because that appointment which. It's. Astronomical term. The point at which light can escape a black hole and you can't achieve beyond beyond it. So he called the singularity and then later recruit well re branded the singularity can be a good thing not model blindness scripted thing. When we sure but it was more than in the machine to resolve all the problems were never could elegy and all that. And and we become immortal differently so it turned into a blueprint. You know there it is it's it's people like recurrent Sloan who are actually coming up with scenarios are. And what would he envisions is that will connect with the machines civil war level of neural interfaces. That will enhance us. You look better memories. Bring all these super power into our heads. Considered being us and them it'll be all all Lux. And that's a very that and I'd love affair happened. I wished that come. You'll connect your listeners who this is another reason. Elon Musk is one of the man of the hour because hey you know he's he worked remarks. Arteries and it's pretty good producer MacBooks or maybe we will live there are there any electrical rhythms. And he's a sister company to create. Neural connections. Which would computers also you know and it has patents saying well maybe we can. Grow with them. And it won't be this. The you'll either scenario the one giant super intelligence ignore everything will be all the innings smarter together. Lot of people who are. Yeah a lot of people look at this problem. Come to what seems to be an obvious answer or solution but it's I don't think it's. Quite as simple as it's made out to be but I'll throw it out there and thome thome what are your thoughts are. You know we're building these these intelligence is this artificial intelligence were the ones designing it can't we just design a a panic button or. Under water power source isn't there a way that we can have. That you know there that might Google did the red button just shut it all down if if we have a situation where it's required. Well the good big red button was an idea that was just a big now. Pacifier for the lessons. They were it not real like yeah I mean. Be disciplined and could architectures we're talking about don't exist and one for the most part they've that are on the club into it encompasses. About trying to shut down Google so. Yeah Christian agenda here every government that is not it's not centralize and or FaceBook. You could call glad to be backed up and running concurrently we dungeons and send in so many good places. So I don't I don't they're not thinking about law which what people are thinking about quietly. Over this is really a good thing. There's been about how do you cut a program with epic in mind and so there are a lot of organizations or throw a couple of names one's called. Miree machine intelligence research institute. We've been doing really great research into how to create friendly there are. Many years there's the future humanities institute at our friend. There is. Future of light institute. Compared in Cambridge mass. And all together there are trying to and courage. Transparencies so we concede you know who so outsiders. Are confused what being developed you know you unlocked and you can bet and they are not. You can get richer but it can what's going on. Sugar and some hopeful signs. That. People get become aware of decisions are starting organizations whether or not. The company like Google and FaceBook and Amazon and whether these giants. Who wrote it becomes public mission states whether it will pay attention to the advice of the emphasis. Is a whole other court. And I also want people to understand though and we're talking about this it's up there were referring to. And robots and that should be your main concern because. Be honest with you AI did it doesn't need a body had it only needs an Internet connection to be able to connect to the rest of the world to. To do its own things and in a lot of people out there are also parents and wallet AI can't control humans. But as humans we control we control healthy animals. Because we're smarter than them whether it be teaching them or trying to teach them our our ways or whatever it may be so. And that's what people really need to understand that. There's so many different ways that these this thing can manipulate and control you as as a human being and it doesn't need a body to do that. That's a really good point we're going to grow. It doesn't need a body and not a robot coming garnered better treated it arbitrary it's not saw where it everywhere in your house just you know. Yet your house your house is wired you're you're from your computer. It is it is it is ubiquitous and what we're we're creating his network and and and and it in leopard are so. So it doesn't you know totally aware of what was there. Yeah no matter where you turn it's it's clear whether it be like we're saying in the the U connect systems on some of these cars or some of these more advanced systems that are in vehicles and and right down to your house send in all your Internet connection you computers that are there your elections your global homes. You you name name name it it's already there it's. The basis of it is already in your home and all he needs to do is all the ai is a get smarter and just connects to Morant. It's able to manipulate control those things that you are so reliant on. And you don't have to you know there was another they're having trouble on. Well it's a challenge and integration challenge and huge robot that you can. But the common sense that you can cut your hands and that you can pour something into a cup that it table as an upside and others. And the way they've come up with the I went and got a Margaret you're not like very much is in the anger social. He picks were about to meet in the train them in there and a real. You know real reality. To have to learn about the world what would an algorithm to learns and sees increasing you can try and try to grasp on the final thing that we picked the granite. Because we're really like peace sort of great. We can read these robot like babies. To create what's called an apology for comments and got. They also do it in virtual world so they make a virtual world where I was. It's modeled after the real world but as you know. Quote unquote physical. Properties and they let these learning machines go and they learn they learn about the world. But in the hit it appears they're cool slashed during our part. What you train one robot you don't need to train the ball because. They agree they're already created ever have a heart Montgomerie encountered a robot knowledgeable and all the reluctant convert. Imagine a world where robots are everywhere and are all getting smarter. Well and they all know exactly what the other one knows and I mean if if they're listening tour all your conversations. And say just saved and for the sake of it. That is system in your house here is you. Beating one year he beating your wife from Pete and 100 children now all these now all the whole ice system all the robots are you coming contact with. No what do you what you do what you've done and and it's it's sort of it's a scary thing then and I believe me if you beating your wife for children everybody should I mention him president but the fact and but the fact of the matter is now they all know everything a while. Your prize at personal life because. Because the systems in your house and them and they are all connected. Yeah you know it's it's it's like and it's like me the most paranoid I think you can thank and really it's really come true right now. If you weren't colonel before it probably deserve to get her. We probably need a little paranoid now soliciting the show. But Eric. You're. Well geez I look at the American government different I guess from well I knew we we all have the same fears it's just either fears that I thought about can send it says it was a kids to remember watching the original terminator movie. Ellen and in to movies prior to that it's just in the whole hail. Robot. These figures are out there these things are there. A reminder that even now in and she doesn't work space Utley went out there watching. The does the astronauts into reading their lips we try to get some privacy and reading their lips and he knows what they're trying to China and Russia about. We're we're basically you know we're in cattle prod and I think we've got some tumbled and we'll probably there's a kind of ability to get a witness and but that we don't and you know these companies school and FaceBook are grabbing up as much. Real estate you know our parties see our pictures. As fast as they possibly can because the intelligent systems you know. The big breakthrough. In the last couple of years with artificial neural nets and and what's called the learning. The big breakthrough is the availability of not this year. Is not the not a bit of all crimes. Gatorade is the thing that makes this revolution wrong and these guys are all up there grabbing as much as an awkward there. We're talking with James Barrett he's a filmmaker and an author his book is called our final invention artificial intelligence in the end of the human error on his website by the way is James Barrett that's BA AR arc AT. Dot com we're gonna take a break when comeback we've got a whole bunch of talk about it. You're talking. Author and filmmaker speaker James Barrett about. Well about artificial intelligence yes and the conversation is fascinating we we've heard you know a lot of scenarios about two million visitation and I know this sounds like might be disconnect there is a connection here. And one of the fears about a possible alien invasion or a visitation. Is that. A biological creature would have a very very difficult time police and under our understanding of how travel and time works on making eight. A trip. From me in another world that could be populated by intelligent beings to earth is just the distances are too great. So the fear is good that it wouldn't be a biological being it would be some type of artificial intelligence or directors or or a hybrid or something so. Yeah there's there's a real concern that one of one of the fears of any type of alien contact would be that it would be this kind of technology. Coming to us and down it would quickly. And it probably is very easily. Take control because of how advanced it could be is that something that you exploring the book. Yes you know it is because I talked with cities such that shows that. And so we talked about this very thing in eastern. You know. One bigger triggered what called Fermi paradox is there's so many adjusting our community. Golden planets are good goldilocks zones what planet like or implied in the universe what irk many. And he's taking part of the that the elderly. And pointing at. Unusual spot. It would be called remarkably they're they're blue door busters they're old spot because he's thinking. Are sitting here thinking that that the machine intelligence that yeah they're intelligent and are probably wishing her eloquence and it and indeed a lot of cooling. So it can actually wanna go to the coldest darkest split with the abduction. A little dark like dark cool little bar called little more than two term which in my particular book. Yeah. If there's been there may be a regional water. We haven't heard from other civilizations and the media because they don't survive the machine intelligent revolution. And that's that there's there's an idea doctor your listeners can can Google called green filter. And it if you're basically acting work you know what article there's that we had been could've kept us from the dancing to the local until. And maybe they're focused ahead of what we haven't liked machine intelligence. Do that we haven't confronted. We we you know we we made it past nuclear weapons so far must now unless struck. Muster doesn't start tweeting again. So good that it didn't have very interesting idea Stephen Hawking actually shed. He was talking using this in the celebrations. You can tell she's so what do you wouldn't an alien range signaled no change. We're gonna drop by twenty years and by the way you're about to more powerful than you are. Would you would you eight get prepared will be when he did so again we don't like Austria. Right now we have a window in which you can get up to speed. We are on developing shape and if we hit the window. Then we're just saying should be you know this young speech and let them on over the let alone will be saw. Talking with James Barrett about artificial intelligence in the threat it poses to all of humankind and you know somebody that seems almost inevitable at this point. But we're gonna talk about it and we got a lot more to chat about on the other side of the break it's beyond reality radio I'm Jason do. It's. Happier guest tonight is change spare car artificial intelligence. Word is. Word laws and regulations. Stand. Currently are our governments taking a serious look at this do they have the ability to put anything in place that would. Offer some protections or is this just a snowball out of control. Well. You can look at this and in a cup and a couple of ways to you know I'm I'm not an optimist and that's why we'll Michael Bloomberg those are pretty low on the arm. One way to look at it is it is it. It's not really just company to company anymore it's not based corporate movers Amazon vs Chinese fighter ignition virtually nation. China has so that by 2030 they wanted to dominate. And blood recruiting on campus but Barbara couldn't do this but these covered under the criminal assault to court and told him. He says artificial jump organist. Artificial intelligence is the future mother in Russia but we're all human content becomes lost opportunities. All the rest are difficult to predict. We're ever become the leader in this year will become the ruler of the world. And it is so there's about two weeks ago. Whoever dominate ai will become the ruler world. Because of the tournament power that they're instrumental include computer this is like China once dominated by 2030. We have to have some kind of government should provision at some point there have been a couple of hearings on Capitol Hill nothing terribly zones so good. Particularly critical if you wanna do something special and then neatly in the you don't call the government. Bart unfortunately I think it could bring all the players together. To get everyone to be transparent you need something. Like these IE eight years that the international atomic energy is color agency. You need to be able to look at everybody's books you need to look at the shot into the Perkins. And now the content legal positions as we can either. Well the problem and in my mind immediately goes to the fact that even with those agencies we've got rogue states and rogue nations that sue under our support those efforts to and I can't imagine it would be any different with something like artificial intelligence. No you're absolutely right and so that this is you know he's got it if we have a chance. If it seemed encouraged. Transparency is to try to develop improved supervision because we know that couples don't do it themselves. The companies are concerned that they're there that are. There. Almost clinical and sort of are there because they only. That there there there. There are only responsible for the quarterly reports. There only be holding you there either stock holders and stockholders are not result of the slowdown of the urged her. And our stockholders and all of them to beat her apparent saw Kubel. If you're IBM would be the pencil in his book order for him in chaotic. They're not as good luck and they cut their responsibility in fact the founder. Deep mine would accompany it what are your cool keep in mind but wait repeated. Go champions of oral. Asian fusion Eumig there was many many are more complex charts. He's an uncertain what worries me is that when the intelligence exclude happens the core companies will get together. Extreme literature. And so explosions and from the podium and talk about what you create. Human level intelligence and machine what happens next is to get stuck in there. Or even corporations and saying you know what we're we're there's some of them are saying you know what would probably aren't going to be. The most responsible would probably will need help. Or government. Provision. Well and I think it also opens the door though a lot of these companies and like Jimmy was saying some of these rogue nations. They work on the work on these things that they keep 100% top secret. And away from her away from everybody. And the fact of the matter is. When is it and we all know there'll eventually come a point where one of these top secret things that they're working on. If if it does start deciding to do its own thing it it'll already be too late. And he once they want to sing it's alternate and start I mean these rogue nations and Jimmy if you think about it. We we might only know what they were working on because at some point the machines might decide that the people are. Are a problem and just remove them from the equation now Melancon dealing with the rogue nation we're dealing with a nation just machines. And those those are things that we need to be concerned about is that nobody is. This forthcoming with information of course everybody wants evidence. They have the best system and they wanna keep it secret so they can and drop it on everybody has big surprise and that becomes terrifying as well. Yeah its advantage to enter. So I wanna get ya just wanna pay to pick up a map point and pitcher that your comment on it come in we've often feared as some kind of biological weapon escaping a laboratory and then just you know spreading across the globe unchecked. But we could be talking about an artificial intelligence breaking on the laboratory in spreading unchecked. Yes that's true that's that that scenario in mud and alleged that. First chapter of our Portland mentioned about exactly that you know that that people who who. And develop these these advanced systems may not themselves know what are you prevent. That that. It you can you can you can easily slide out of control and the reflecting that is because of the nature of very complex is Jerel. The algorithms to buy and so are sold in certain percent of the stocks on Wall Street there's not one there's not so gentle person knows all. Or how it works there's a team that's sort of knows are. Right now. Even neural nets are crucial hurdle that shouldn't be wearing you could these terms. These are these are the black box systems and they're the black box. But what that means is. We know what the inputs are we put in Baghdad who couldn't translations and no doubt but circuit Kurds translations or does object recognition order some. Some reform some some function. We don't know exactly how they work inside. And so there's a great deal of variability and and unpredictability about it actually work. And I find it you're just during translations or you're doing something. Operating. I'm an industrial plants or building rockets. They're ordering anything. Involved in weapons and you've really got no better. What what what long distance. Well in an even beyond that and what with what GB was just talking about. I talked to people in the past about these things and even if these ai systems are. Being kept in check and they're being controlled. And I'm being told me you know kept in a certain area where they have no no access the Internet or or any of that nature. All it takes is one person making the mistake of walking in in with a cell phone that's on. And now they didn't they have access to actually get otter get out of the system and that's the thing and a lot of people realize that politics is you walking with a rifle in your pocket. Forgetting about it and all the sudden this thing has a way to ski where it is and can upload it's they can do what ever in a fraction of the second. Four and it's so that's all it takes is that one split second of a mistake of it having some sort of a network connection. To be able to get out there in the world and then spread and spread like a virus. Well exactly that you found the Packers and Packers and you shut down. She looked back in this week and so conceivably you know super intelligent machines and acted either hack out there. Imagine keeping an animal and occasionally felt a Smart and he should. It wouldn't be in the future in law. And that side and talk and talk about the infrastructure or unload pension. And we can't actually be. That is the superdome machine does it as people can. The Dominique. Because it does look come on won't be able and so we have to do is make them. Empathetic towards us with a commitment conflict doesn't think about our our well there and really our job that's what they're a certain area and help will be worked. But let me ask this James or so say that we're able to do that there were able to. Make these systems understand it human life is the most important thing out there and and so forth. What happens if or Jimmy was saying. If visitor from another planet come now chances are if they think the human life is more important. That they're going to first off instantly protect us and and so that opens up that opens up this whole other can norms and it it really it's it's like a spiraling thing it is that's just out of control. It's you Teresa sing a human life is more the most important thing OK but than every everything else's life is secondary. Yeah you know when you know you are doing so without so I mean. Sorry aliens but. I I think so I mean and resort 11. One really heart problem and in the course when it's going to be an example. You know protect your utilities commission to protect human like well we begin a big debate about when you look begins. And if you moved around and we'll go we'll get hurt even bigger debate that's true and some people some people. Errors in some parts of the world women and children don't have person at the same way that the lenders so that it probably wouldn't go into the equation. And then it also. Changes over time. So we went under in years past the whole notion of whose human changes as the slavery. Even more than today if you go a hundred years in the future so Albany to. So you'd you'd think that you want a machine that friendly towards humans and you do but what you really want is a machine that intruder. That is so the call was actually harder because you need a machine that changes over time and the knows what's best for some. So. CPU and hard concept intuition is something that you and much. And we have no no clue about our our program intuition and but that they had these are the ideas that are ridiculous alive we're sharing the pilot that children don't machine. Is there any chance whatsoever James that this that we at some points bulls experienced something maybe it's something intentional maybe it's some kind of disaster. That that you know like an EMP detonation that we've been warned about is something happens along the way that. That wakes us up to the fact there were too reliant on devices computers and Intel artificial intelligence and we stopped and maybe even reverse. Some of this and a return to. What I'll call of a simpler time. I'd love and country and I don't dignity intact as an ethicist. Named Wendell Wallach that you help. Who shed about automation. Our only hope to have some cheapening. Accident. We have to Mac and that's a lot of coal and an enemy to go whoa. But we are we married we are we patrol in speed to mean you'd think we were blown nuclear pollution by. I mean if you look at that it. Knology what you guys really tracking closely. In quite some birdies we've got to the as a way it is but yet having the energy. And instead we weaponized and started incinerated and cities. And then we we are waiting these weapons at each other her six years in particular so that speaks. So we're we're not heard we've you'd think the route we would've learned the last version I don't know what we're gonna trick with I don't think he's just typical. And so negative stress and viewers were probably just coming into the as you know it's coming into the conversation that is such as subject matter. Where are kind of dire straits and the more people than no doubt about it the more people that. You know live to read your articles says about what people are saying go and read undercurrent of films are coming out we might. We've put. It's gonna impact everybody is everywhere really need that start understand. Well it's funny we talk about a lot of crazy and scary thing isn't a scientific things. On the show and I have to say javy and and you probably created me this is probably one of the scariest shows I think we ever had. Just talking about and ball this in the possibilities of what's already out there. Yeah I and I usually have so no problem fallen asleep after the program and acts to be different I think James were were baster and get phone yet we basically do were basically at a time but here it's it's been a fastener discussion I want your final thoughts as to. You know what you advocate. For moving forward to do this. Would seem to be inevitable applicable to do and and a way that's responsible. Okay something you can do is pretty get up to speed on this and read my book are our own invention or read should intelligence by nick bought him. And start getting acclimated because 200 under Richard congressman and say who we need some oversight of these and dancing on the politicians. And to write your congressman you're gonna have to know the subject matter is as a militant condoms and to learn that now. And then start looking at the congressman were calling for hearings. And look and look at the company's tour who were be in order. And and you know what would your pocketbooks and we need to get this beat really supplements. And so. My my advice is. These are get get up to speed get a ball. And what's easiest way for people to find you and in your book. Yeah it started. Curlander Amazon look or funnel invention go to www. Chain's parent dot com. And that's OK you are. Aren't your. You'll see my Twitter feed and and a lot of information or to recruited out of the day. Who. Are our primary. Well thank you so much for coming in the ring and all of us in this has been as just a mind blowing conversation and this is something that we can do we keep javy and I could talk to you all night about so. I just wish we had. My question. What of course thank you very much you questions and you're you're you're this level especially really Great Britain should Bloomberg. Okay that's James Barrett I don't forget to stop by his website and check it out and check out his book we've got to things that we're gonna wrap things up here just a moment it's beyond reality radio would Jason JD. Tired of the costly charges and bombing a loved one doesn't pass the meeting with the mortician interfere with your play on the back nine. Oversaw there's got to be a cheaper way crack. Save money and do it on your own time with the craft go home and bombing chip. She had crap go home and balmy yeah. Consistent all the key instruments needed to start bombing at home today to hide her respirator is the last meter Saturday. Chemical in chapter operating systems super dream to suture needles that and more. Tillman and Apple's passing need to pass a trip to the home why political heat stroke interfere with your backstroke used to Prague Oklahoma bombing came to start small business. What do you show that children can contain call themselves. That opponent on who can. Cargo craft goes to save you money. It may not be right Mina theatrical hell it may not even be legal go to craft go home and bombings that you'll save on the way to the the greens practical helping out the living so you can afford did not recommend that your. Kid too. Our that's gonna do it for us tonight again thanks James Byrd for joining us and thanks all of you for listening it's beyond reality radio we've got great shows coming up. I next week don't forget tomorrow night's best stuff. Woolsey and have a great weekend.